Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

User avatar
Splinter
Posts: 127
Joined: September 4th, 2012, 3:10 pm
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Contact:

Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by Splinter » December 4th, 2013, 12:47 pm

Hi all,

I was notified about the Bértikal puzzle. And like to be informed:
- do you know of this puzzle / is it in your collection?
- do you know its designer / does the name Oscar Encina ring a bell in the puzzle community?
- do you know whether this puzzle is a success (in Spain or elsewhere)

Please look at the picture below, and provide input to me (input "this is a totally differently looking puzzle in my opinion" is for me as valid as "this is some kind of copycat") if the looks of this puzzle to you are similar or not compared with the MazeRoll. (To be compared to the official picture for the design registration in top)
MazeRoll vs Bertikal comparison.jpg
MazeRoll versus Bértikal design comparison
MazeRoll vs Bertikal comparison.jpg (194.84 KiB) Viewed 15522 times
Youtube videos: MazeRoll and Bértikal


Thanks for any response!

- Splinter
If you have difficulty viewing the picture, look here
Last edited by Splinter on December 4th, 2013, 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheJuggler
Posts: 120
Joined: April 25th, 2011, 10:19 pm
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by TheJuggler » December 4th, 2013, 4:13 pm

To my mind, both seem to be the same concept, and idea.

User avatar
bluesign2k
Site Admin
Posts: 285
Joined: March 21st, 2011, 12:51 pm
Location: Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by bluesign2k » December 4th, 2013, 6:48 pm

If it's not a copy then it's a remarkable coincidence. While some of the paths are more curved, the general concept of the puzzle seems identical... particularly the ability to alter the position and orientation of the rings.

I've personally never heard of the designer before either. Have you found if he has any patents filed on the design?

User avatar
Splinter
Posts: 127
Joined: September 4th, 2012, 3:10 pm
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by Splinter » December 4th, 2013, 7:08 pm

bluesign2k wrote:I've personally never heard of the designer before either. Have you found if he has any patents filed on the design?
A design cannot be patented, only registered. (But it can be enforced as well -sometimes better, sometimes worse- as a patent)
There's no requirement to publish whether you've registered a design. But I did, and that's normally the way to do.

A patent for Bertikal I cannot find (link). Also no design registration in his name (fill out 'Encina' at this website's advanced search (for owner name))

- Splinter

Louis
Posts: 48
Joined: April 17th, 2011, 11:19 pm

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by Louis » December 4th, 2013, 8:13 pm

At first impression they look very similar to me.

After seeing the video it is clear that even the basic construction is similar, having a central rod with exchangeable cylinders. But imagine someone coincidentally coming up with the idea of stacking multiple cylindrical mazes, then what other options would they have to construct it? A central rod and a closing 'cap' is a very logical way to build it. The fact they also use 4 cylinders is funny, why not more or less? (Although they do seem to sell a 1-cylinder-only variant, but then 5 in a pack...).

The video appears to show (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Bertikal cylinders have only one entry and exit point for the ball, and no limitation in rotation. That makes it a very much simpler puzzle, maybe not even a puzzle but more of a children's toy.

If you wanted to mass-market the maze roll you would definitely need to look for other production methods (than 3D printing each one) and fancy colors, and you might very well come up with a product like this.

I think I'll buy one as a toy for the kids. (The kids can also play with my maze roll, but only under supervision and with clean hands!-).

After thinking about all of this, they still look very similar.
That does however not imply that Bertikal was derived from maze roll, it may still be a coincidence.
<hidden></hidden>

User avatar
Splinter
Posts: 127
Joined: September 4th, 2012, 3:10 pm
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by Splinter » December 4th, 2013, 9:44 pm

Louis wrote:(Although they do seem to sell a 1-cylinder-only variant, but then 5 in a pack...).
To me the separate 5 cylinders look as exchange parts for a 4-cylinder roll. Not as a separate 1-cylinder maze.
Louis wrote:(The video appears to show (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Bertikal cylinders have only one entry and exit point for the ball, and no limitation in rotation. That makes it a very much simpler puzzle, maybe not even a puzzle but more of a children's toy.
I've the same opinion: it's more a dexterity puzzle than a solving puzzle. Although it has a difficulty rank of medium to hard on one resellers' page. (Maybe difficulty measured for the dexterity aspect)
Louis wrote:That does however not imply that Bertikal was derived from maze roll, it may still be a coincidence.
One of the reasons that I ask for the designer or if anyone knows Mr. Oscar Encina as a designer is that it would be very coincidental that his first puzzle would have a similar shape and idea as the MazeRoll. But the credit he gets is that he dares to invest in a mass-produced puzzle (where I did not dare to go (yet)).

- Splinter

User avatar
Splinter
Posts: 127
Joined: September 4th, 2012, 3:10 pm
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by Splinter » December 13th, 2013, 11:57 am

My conclusions (so far):
- Seems like no-one has the Bértikal in his/her collection or knew about it; thus this is not (yet) a world-wide success
- The designer is unknown in the community
- Doubt still exists whether this puzzle/game is fully original

Pro-Bértikal:
- The MazeRoll cannot have been in the physical hands of the designer of the Bértikal before its release (around May 2013), as I know where the few copies of the MazeRoll were before that time
- The Bértikal is more a game (I think) than a puzzle; it’s not incorporating the partially blocked rotations the MazeRoll has (so, it’s not an exact copy)
- From the region of the designer/manufacturer I’ve not seen any visits to Mfave.nl between the dates of the release of the MazeRoll (2. December 2012) and the release of the Bértikal (around May 2013). In my opinion, if you intend to copy something, you check for as much information as possible and certainly check the original website
- This designer and/or the manufacturer dares to come into an insecure market with a mass-produced puzzle/game
- If the Bértikal is indeed copied from or inspired by the MazeRoll, than this was done in a relatively short period (approx. 5 months) for mass-production (creating puzzle, moulds etc.)

Contra-Bértikal:
- It is very typical that the Bértikal has the same amount of disks/cylinders as the MazeRoll; both have 4 (not 3 or 5) that can be oriented each in 2 ways. Also the size is quite similar (round 5 x 18 cm versus round 4.5 cm x 14 cm)
- When I registered the design of the MazeRoll I checked a large amount of –both older and newer- patents and design registrations regarding maze and labyrinth puzzles and games. Doing this, I did not find any similar puzzle to the MazeRoll. And it’s very typical that there is one now, shortly after the release of the MazeRoll
(note: I also did not find the Mays Roller Maze patent, but this can probably only be found in U.K. in a paper archive. If anyone has access to this, I’m very interested)
- Oscar Encina is not (yet) known as puzzle designer from earlier puzzles. Making a mass-produced Bértikal in a ‘spontaneous (?) move’ is quite a typical (and risky) move when not being familiar in the puzzle/game community
- Also quite typical is the profile in the internet newspapers of designer Oscar Encina as ‘businessman’, with a company manufacturing the puzzle being (from origin) in the sector ‘real estate’


- Splinter

JamesD
Posts: 2
Joined: October 19th, 2013, 10:23 am

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by JamesD » December 21st, 2013, 10:06 am

I have the more complex 4 part Bertikal and the 5 small ones.
I do not have Maze Roll.

Maze Roll appears to be a better puzzle with the nice added feature of the ball going through the centre to the opposite end.
Bertikal looks a prettier design but almost certainly much simpler.

The principal of separate maze parts that can be interchanged is well known; though I am not aware of it being previously used on a cylindrical maze.

Once the decision to use a number of cylinders has been made. 4 seems like a sensible choice as 3 is too few to really exploit the idea and 5 is getting needlessly complex/expensive.

Contact me directly for any further thoughts at the puzzle museum.

james

User avatar
Splinter
Posts: 127
Joined: September 4th, 2012, 3:10 pm
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by Splinter » December 21st, 2013, 10:01 pm

Thanks very much!
This way I've heard of at least one puzzle collector that has the actual item.

I'll send a private message.


- Splinter

User avatar
Splinter
Posts: 127
Joined: September 4th, 2012, 3:10 pm
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Input requested: Bértikal puzzle

Post by Splinter » February 4th, 2014, 8:05 am

Just found out I've prior art.

The patent of the Bértikal can be found at: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchRe ... acenet.com

Date of submission: 12.04.2013
Date of publication: 08.05.2013

As far as I can understand it wants to patent a cilindrical maze. Guess what the MazeRoll is.

And this was registered as design early December 2012.

Update 13-03-2014: there has been contact by my attorney with the other party. As the other party does not acknowledge any infringement I decided to create a Facebook page to claim my design as the original Bértikal Original

Bertikal Original Blue.jpg
Bertikal Original Blue, http://www.mfave.nl/en/webshop/puzzles-26/MazeRoll_blue-87
Bertikal Original Blue.jpg (134.57 KiB) Viewed 14654 times

Post Reply